Zach Johnson:

That's awesome. And how long you been working with Kevin?

Jonathan:

Only about six months. I met Kevin through networking essentially. And I liked what he had to say. And he impressed me really quickly. And I'm really happy that we got the opportunity to work together.

Zach Johnson:

Now, Kevin, you're the independent kind of outsource media buyer, specifically for Facebook, right? Is that right?

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Kevin:

That is correct. Facebook and Instagram.

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Zach Johnson:

Okay, cool. Now, tell us a little bit about your background. Tell us a little bit about, I'm assuming you have an agency, you've got a couple more clients than Curves and Combat Boots. So give us a little background here.

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Kevin:

Yeah, no, for sure. I got started with digital marketing around four years ago. Literally just Googled how to make money online. And then I was just fresh out of college and I just got dropped from a job and I was just like, "Well, I guess I could try it." I got into affiliate marketing and I was just using a high ticket affiliate marketing. And I was just like, "You know, I feel like I can do this for other people." So then I just started working with different brands. Kind of caught my weight with e-commerce and then from there kind of just took off from there. I don't have an agency. I don't like managing that whole bunch of accounts. I'm more so on the consulting side now. And I met Jon ending of last year, around October-ish. And then from there, we just stay connected. And he told me about Curves within December. And yeah man, this year, man, we're taking off, taking off, hitting some crazy, crazy numbers.

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Jonathan:

Absolutely.

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Zach Johnson:

That's awesome. So tell us, give us a little bit of insight. How much are you guys spending on Facebook ads right now versus some of your other channels?

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Kevin:

So yeah, so it's funny because wn hewe first got the account, right? They were probably spending around in the, monthly, around 200. Not 200,000, 20,000. Maybe around 20,000. But the goal was Jon was telling me, "Hey, this year, we're trying to get to eight figures." And so we've just been slowly, slowly ramping up and scaling and scaling. So now just depending on what type of jobs we have, now we're relatively spending around 60 to about 80 to 90K on a monthly basis.

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Zach Johnson:

Nice, awesome. Congrats on scaling it up that much. That's super cool. So you guys have a standing weekly. And this show is all about helping the advertising ecosystem learn the financial principles of scaling ads, right? So that comes across in your guys' relationship in terms of setting budgets and obviously setting some KPIs, which we want to dive into those. To start the show, what are some financial principles, particularly with Jonathan, on your side, as you're communicating back the marketing spend back to the CFO and the CEO, what are some financial principles and best practices that you can share with the advertising community that they can implement and start? Whether it's better managing their cash or their budgets or their spend, what advice do you guys have?

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Jonathan:

Yeah. I think for us, it all comes down to the team and checks and balances. As we were kind of discussing earlier, I'm always asking for more spend, more budget, more scale. And Kevin's in the same boat. We just want to spend and scale because we're very confident in our abilities and we're way over our KPIs as far as ROAS and way under on CPA. So of course we want to. But we have a great accountant kind of slash CFO who really keeps us in check. And then at the end of the day, our CEO, Elijah, ends up making the decision. I'm over here on one end kind of like the devil on his shoulder saying, "Give me more." And then Dimitri is on the other end saying, "No. We got to tighten it up and make sure we scale wisely." And I respect him a lot. I mean, we always give each other a hard time, but I really respect that guy and make sure ... He's really a huge reason why we are successful.

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Zach Johnson:

Yeah. What happens when you start getting low on inventory and you're wanting to scale up? How does that conversation really start to happen? Because this is the classic example where you have an agency or CMO, VP of Marketing that's asking for more budget. But there's not a clear line of communication with the CFO, right? It's like, why am I getting a no every time here? And a lot of times it's a cash or a credit or a capital related conversation on the back end. So it's easy to scale up when inventory is high. But how has that really played out for you in those meetings with your CFO and CEO?

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Jonathan:

Yeah. I mean, so we're really blessed. We don't have too many cash flow issues. We've been very fortunate, especially this year with the pandemic, et cetera. But yeah, it all comes down to communication. I mean, that's it. And if we're not aware that something's out of stock and I mean, Kevin will see if the ROAS dives really quick, he's very attentive to his ads. But there have been times where we had an ad going for 24 hours and guess what? It's been out of stock for 24 hours. So we make sure that we communicate that really effectively and make sure that that happens as little as possible.

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Zach Johnson:

That's awesome. That's awesome. And then Kevin, walk us through the KPIs. What do you have to hit? What are the numbers? Otherwise, if you don't hit, you're fired.

Kevin:

Right. So yeah, no, initially, Jon told me, he was like, "Hey, look, we want to at least get our CPA around 18. We're not trying to go anywhere above that. ROAS, I think we were starting off at least I need to hit a minimum of a three. And so just understanding those KPIs, this allows me to really start ramping up. That's what really helped me to ramp up so quickly was having an understanding those KPIs. So now when we have our drops coming in, we have our good campaigns going, now we're at a super mode. 13, 14, 12 sometimes even CPA on the majority of the campaigns across the board.

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Dylan Carpenter:

Are y'all looking at it on the blended side of things? Are you comparing prospecting versus retargeting? Same with your other channels. Are you kind of blending it all together or kind of keeping it segmented?

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Kevin:

Yeah. On the Facebook side, it's definitely all blended together. But even in that, still, depending on some of the top of funnel campaigns, they would even beat some of the retargeting campaigns just because it's that good of a product. Yeah. But yeah, it's all in one blended.

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Dylan Carpenter:

Heck yeah. That makes total sense. And I mean, how fast are you noticing that creative fatigue come through? I mean, you have a huge audience. So I mean, are these creatives lasting a good while on your end or are you seeing them get saturated pretty quick? Or how fast are you kind of rotating those out?

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Kevin:

Yeah, no, that's a good question. It really just depends, right? So if I launch a new campaign, I'm typically trying to launch them around the time where we're about to have a drop. Honestly, working with Curves is one of the greatest learning experience I've had is just working with a e-commerce brand. Because seeing the activity within the ads compared to the action on their actual brand within their drops and how literally it's like imagine just having gasoline and just dumping it down. When our drops comes, dude, stuff just goes crazy.

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Dylan Carpenter:

[crosstalk 00:09:44] hype train a little bit.

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Kevin:

Right. So understanding that now just helps me to understand what type of campaigns that I need to make. And from there, once the drop ends, okay, hey, which creatives are dying down a lot faster? Taking those off. And honestly, just being a lot more simple. Before Facebook, you had to test 20 different campaigns and ads and you had to have 50 campaigns running. And now I've just learned to keep it simple. I only have maybe about no more than 10 active campaigns in my accounts. I'm usually around the six to maybe four to six, seven campaigns live at a time. I'm just spending a lot more money within those. So now since I use dynamic creatives, I don't really experience too much ad exhaustion now.

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Dylan Carpenter:

That's the way to do it. Heck yeah. No, that makes total sense.

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Zach Johnson:

That's cool, man. Well, I want to dive into some of these ads. I'm ready to dive into the Rich Ad Poor Ad segment. You ready to kick it off, Dylan?

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Dylan Carpenter:

Oh yeah. All right, gentlemen. What do y'all feel? And should we dive into the poor ad or that rich ad first?

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Zach Johnson:

I think we should roast the shitty poor ad.

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Dylan Carpenter:

Heck yeah. So we got a static image. I'm going to kind of lay it out here so everybody has some context. But hey, everybody prepare to freak out. Our crop tops are designed for low impact and high style. The new styles are here. So with y'all kind of being more legging oriented, we're kind of flexing on some crop tops. We got a static image, four wonderful ladies kind of posted up. So, I mean, let's break it down, Kevin. I mean, why didn't this work? Did y'all put a decent amount of budget behind it? Let's go ahead and kind of break it apart, rip it apart.

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Kevin:

Yeah. No, for sure. So I think the biggest thing is it's a ladies' brand, right? So because Curves has such a dynamic audience, I figured, "Hey, they're going to love to buy anything we put out, right?" And that was just not the case, that was not the case at all. I put this out and it was an instant flop. You have that advertiser's pride. So you're like, "Anything I make isn't going to be shitty. It's not going to be bad." You see the ROAS is tanking, you're like, "I'm going to let it run a little bit more." It just keeps going down and down and down. So yeah, I think the biggest thing or reason why it didn't fit was because, one, it's a leggings brand. And so this should have been more of a bottom of funnel cross selling type of product instead of me trying to put this on the top of the funnel and put it out there. I think that's one of the biggest reasons why it flopped.

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Dylan Carpenter:

So more or less not kind of focusing on those hero products that are the namesake for the brand essentially is kind of the way to go about it.

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Kevin:

Either the hero products or the actual brand itself.

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Dylan Carpenter:

Now, how long did you let this bad boy run? I'm kind of curious. [crosstalk 00:12:50] I want to hear that ROAS on that.

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Kevin:

[crosstalk 00:12:54] Our CPP is around 18. And I let it get into maybe 37-ish. I was just like, "Ah okay, all right. This is a flop. It's okay."

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Dylan Carpenter:

Was this the first time you were kind of testing a different angle at crop tops on that kind of top of funnel side? Or were you just trying to see if that would, hey, kick off?

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Kevin:

Yeah, a little bit of both. I had just been more so focusing on the accessories and stuff like that on the middle of funnel, but I think we hit a drop for the tees. And so, yeah, I just figured that, "Okay. Well, yeah, it's going to hit." But nah.

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Zach Johnson:

We were talking about before the show, I think that's a common mistake though is especially when you have a brand that's spending six figures a month and has got a multiple product lines, you instantly say, "All right, well, this is the scale I've gotten with core product, A." And you started thinking about bottom of funnel profitability, cross sells on retargeting. That's natural, right? But everybody likes to do their fancy footwork on their trip wires or their front end offers.

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Zach Johnson:

And I think that you can go down that rabbit hole. I think one of the things you did successfully, I mean, yeah, you caught the whole, I think, campaign. I wouldn't really look at this as this is an ad that didn't work. I think the whole strategy of the funnel of how does a leggings core brand sell crop tops? And really, in terms of funnels, somebody could have spent a whole year on this funnel if you think about it, Jonathan, right? We're going to open up crop tops and what's that funnel look like? What's that creative look like?

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Zach Johnson:

And you guys, Kevin, I know you're beating yourself up on the 38 bucks, but bro, come on. That was smart. I feel like in the grander picture of things, and maybe Jonathan, you can kind of spread some lights, of across the board, how much did you guys really invest in that initiative of an attempt to try to sell crop tops on top of funnel? Or did you really do it the right way in the sense that throw up some ads and see what the click through rate is before we even invest in this?

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Jonathan:

Yeah, it was testing. And at the end of the day, you need to test. You need to. And I make sure Kevin has kind of free rein to just test what he wants. I wholeheartedly trust him as the expert to figure it out. And he might've been a little bit proud at the beginning, but he quickly put his ego aside and said, "Hey, this just isn't working." And at the end of the day, the numbers don't lie. You know?

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Zach Johnson:

You took your medicine, Kevin, you took your medicine.

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Kevin:

For context, I had spent 2000 on the campaign. And so the cost of the CPA was about 38 overall.

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Zach Johnson:

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.

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Dylan Carpenter:

Hey, that's a great thing to kind of bring up, Zach. Because I mean, yeah, if it's a funnel, you can dedicate a lot of time to it. Hey, let's get a photo shoot for the crop tops. Let's go ahead and get some models. To where that can take you down a rabbit hole to where? We're going super negative. Versus let's go ahead and test what we got first, see if it's a proof of concept, and then kind of prove it out a little bit more. I think that's a killer poor ad kind of more strategy and funnel to kind of really capitalize on because shoot, that could have been a rough one.

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Zach Johnson:

And we're going to link these ads up in the show notes for everybody listening in. But I'll give another point here. Even though it's technically a loss, Kevin, on a couple grand. The creative here was not over the top, right? It's clearly MVP, here's some pictures of four women in crop tops and white shoes. You didn't overthink it, which, as I'm looking now, switching over gears, that's not the case with your rich ad. Right? So yeah. Kudos to you on keeping it MVP and controlling your losses there and controlling that test across the board. So super, super cool. Not bad. It's not that bad.

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Zach Johnson:

All right. Let's dive into it. Let's talk about the rich ad. So what's working right now? Tell us. How has this ad scaled up? I mean, I'm looking at it right now. You guys got, shoot, 419,000 views, 1300 shares, 419 comments, 7,000 likes. So that is clearly working. The creative is pretty primo. It's your classic [inaudible 00:17:50] video with jump cuts about every half a second that gets your attention. So lay it out. How has this ads performed? How much does it scale? Give us the juicy details.

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Kevin:

Yeah, man. So I remember when Jon, he told me about this ad before we launched it. And he's just like, "Yeah man, they made this new video. Check it out." Jon, I never tell you this, but my expectations are pretty low. I was just like, "Okay, well, it'll be cool. But when I watched it, I was like, "Wow." I was really blown back. It was like the whole Click Clack Under Armour commercial. It was just very, very well put together as a whole commercial. And so yeah, man, I didn't even really do too much.

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Kevin:

The biggest thing we just focused on was just testing two types of copy. We tested a short form, one sentence. And then from there we had a bit longer form. As you can see, the longer form won, which is a bit surprising to me. But I think it kind of just stands with the message behind the video. And so, yeah, I'm sending them straight to the homepage from that. And yeah man, it exploded on itself. Literally spent the first couple thousand we spent on it, we were getting a 15 return on ad spend. It was insane. So from there, I just kept pouring juice on the fire, spent seven, spent 10. And from there, so started moving into other campaigns. Middle of the funnel, there's shorten up videos as well too. So we have a 90 second one and we have a 30 second one [inaudible 00:19:29].

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Zach Johnson:

I want to see the 90 minute one. That's going to amazing.

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Jonathan:

Incredible movie. You guys should watch it sometime.

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Zach Johnson:

It's a webinar. It's a webinar for women's leggings.

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Kevin:

Right, yeah. So just chopping up into different variations inside the audience really, really helped the campaign explode.

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Dylan Carpenter:

So how long have you been using this and is it still cranking?

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Kevin:

When did the video come out, Jon?

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Jonathan:

Man, I want to say it was February timeframe.

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Kevin:

Yeah.

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Dylan Carpenter:

It's probably still pumping some fire into it, huh?

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Kevin:

Exactly. Yeah. More so moved it to the middle of funnel now. But yeah, whenever a drop or something will come up, put that top funnel right back up.

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Dylan Carpenter:

And I mean, from what I'm noticing, of course direct to consumer is the ultimate goal. But it seems killer on the branding side. Because I mean, the first thing I was noticing were a lot of the comments. You really tugged on some heart strings for who your actual audience is to where one of the first comments I see is, "Finally a video message I can actually relate with." So I mean, when it comes to speaking to your audience and kind of finding those pain points and really reeling them in, you got that emotional connection right there to where they're going to kind of keep you on the loop without a doubt. So I think, for your audiences, the women empowerment side, you hit it right on the head.

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Jonathan:

Yeah. Edward, who shot the video, I got to give him props. He really just did a really good job with the vision. Myself and Elijah kind of knew in our heads what we wanted. And then we worked with Presley, who's the model in the video. And she kind of shined her own personal touch on it. But Edward just nailed it. He shot it awesome. He really did.

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Zach Johnson:

So who's Edward? Who's this guy Edward?

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Jonathan:

Edward's our videographer.

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Zach Johnson:

In house videographer?

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Jonathan:

No. So he has a full time gig, but we do fly him out to a lot of locations. And he definitely has a passion for Curves. And if we had more work, we would definitely hire him full time.

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Zach Johnson:

Yeah. I mean, this only takes one video as we all just talked about, right?

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Kevin:

Right.

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Zach Johnson:

Well, that's awesome. So walk us through the creative process, Jonathan, in terms of how long does this take? How much do you guys invest in this creative? Because it looks pretty awesome.

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Jonathan:

Yeah. So Edward has really reasonable prices. I don't know exactly what we spent, but we always make sure we take care of our people and fly them out and put them up and all that and make sure they're taken care of and that they make it an experience too. It's not all about the shoot. I mean, we want to make sure that they have fun during the experience. But yeah, I met with Edward first. I kind of went from the ads perspective. Edward is really good at creating the story, creating the emotional response, but I wanted to make sure there were a few quick cuts at the beginning to really hook people in and make sure people were watching past three seconds. Because if you don't get people hooked, it doesn't matter how good your video is. You need to make sure you catch their attention really quick.

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Jonathan:

So I talked to him a lot about that and best practices. But pretty much from there, I mean, it was all him. I made some minor tweaks to a few of the shots and Presley really, that emotion in the video is very sincere. You can tell. I mean, you can tell. But yeah, we had probably two or three meetings and then finally flew them out. They took care of this shoot themselves. And we were anxiously awaiting it, but it came back even better than we imagined.

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Dylan Carpenter:

Heck yeah. Now on a ad side of things, that's where I like to get into it, was this more of, would you think, on the kind of first touch points on you saw, Kevin, were people converting from this immediately or is it kind of more getting the awareness out there for the retargeting ads? How did that kind of come into play? Was it kind of more of a long term cycle or did people see that and like, "I'm going to go buy this right now?" Or was it more to kind of feed the beast of the retargeting?

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Kevin:

Yeah, that's a good question. I know especially early in my years when I used to do Facebook advertising, the biggest thing was like, "All right. Well, you want to run this as a video view and then use it as retargeting." But dude, I don't see that working anymore because you're optimizing for people to view a video. You're not optimizing it for purchase. So I put it straight for purchase. And yeah, dude, the return, like I said, we want our CPP to be around 18. Dude, I started off and it was like seven and then it slowly, slowly creeped up. I think right now it's at 10. If I just pull up a random campaign, it's around 10 on the CPP side.

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Kevin:

ROAS was an easy. We paid one campaign, it was over 10,000. And yeah, it was. So you can imagine the ROAS from that. So it was pretty much an instant hit, man. It was an instant hit. And the crazy thing is is we weren't pushing to purchase, we were just using the brand. But I think it really correlates to how well the video is put together. And then from there, you go to the website and that same message is translated over because I'm sending them straight to the homepage. I'm not sending them to a catalog or any type of products. I'm sending them straight to the homepage. So I think it's just a really good correlation between the two.

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Dylan Carpenter:

Oh yeah. I mean, that's something I mentioned before we kind of jumped on this is a lot of the top videos we've had have been the poor ad has been that professionally done video versus the, "Hey, we went to a festival, we had people try some hot sauce. So I mean, it didn't cost us anything except for the actual product." So the fact that y'all kind of reversed it and did more of the professional side of it really kind of goes a long way to say as long as you can kind of speak to your audience and have that kind of really connection and a killer offer, I mean, it's going to really sell itself at that point. So it's good to see some solid videos that had some money back behind it still kill it these days.

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Zach Johnson:

What was the strategy, Jon? You said you were really intentional about getting the hook on the click or in the feed. What was the strategy there when you were working with the video editor?

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Jonathan:

Yeah. I mean, it was just, it was kind of what you said. It was those fast cuts, really making sure that we were catching people's attention. But yeah. I mean, honestly, I can't remember exactly what I said. It was a long time ago now. But I know it was essentially we wanted a hook and then have an emotional response right at the beginning. And then we knew if we could do that chances were that the ad would be successful. But we've been doing this long enough, Kevin and I, that we know we might think an ad's going to be great or whatever, but you never know. You never know. I've seen ads that have really high production quality and maybe 20, 30, 40, $50,000 was dumped into it and it flops. And I've seen, like you said, user generated content that was free that it works great. So you never know.

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Zach Johnson:

Yeah. I mean, just those first seven seconds, he did a great job of pulling out the emotion. Right? Because she's looking in the mirror, getting herself pumped up, she's got a sweat dripping off her face, she's worked out. And then she's kissing her kid and it's like, "Oh my gosh. She's working her ass off." And it just becomes really real all within the first 10 seconds. I do think he caught the exhaustion, the intensity of the workout. All that's captured really well. If you think about what the video could have been, man, it could have just been somebody literally going up a leg line and showing that there's pockets on the leggings, right? That's what any direct response non-creative non-brand marketer would do of like, "Oh, so it's leggings with pockets? Okay, let's really focus on the pockets. Right?"

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Dylan Carpenter:

[crosstalk 00:27:38].

‍

Zach Johnson:

And as much as we like to talk about the numbers, I mean, I feel like this, it did great for your brand, right? Because you said at the beginning of the show Curves and Combat Boots is all about empowering women. And I mean, it's a beautiful thing when your best performing ad totally speaks to the brand. I mean, that is just so awesome. Right? When that happens? It means you get to keep your jobs, maybe get a little bit more ad budget.

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Kevin:

You get to expand in different audiences as well, too. Now I can focus on something completely different as moms, who would have never ... Maybe they don't know about leggings. But because they're a mom, now they can relate to that video. And vice versa just with other targetings and things like that.

‍

Zach Johnson:

Yeah. So what advice do you guys have? Obviously, on the other side of this of having a campaign, I mean, what advice do you have? But also just sum it up for me, Kevin, how much have you guys been able to spend with this one video?

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Kevin:

With this one video, we spent literally just because ... And with one video, because like I said, we have the short one and the long one, easily over 20 grand on the video for sure itself. Not even just combining it with campaigns, just within its own camp. And yeah. So from there, the biggest advice I would just say is just pretty much everything that we're talking about. Having something that correlates with the brand and you don't have to really focus on selling to sell. I think that's a big, big thing that even a couple days ago I was making a new ad and thought about that. Instead of focusing on the message and the brand, people are too focused on selling. We just made the joke people are just focused on the pockets and the details, why are they not focused on the actual what it stands for and why does this mean something? So advertisers and agencies and brands focusing on that first, then the sales are going to come in.

‍

Zach Johnson:

Yeah. That's cool. What about you, Jon?

‍

Jonathan:

Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to kind of second that. I mean, when you're essentially selling female empowerment and not leggings, the options are endless. You can expand that. And I'll do a little plug here. We got something coming out nutrition oriented in the future. And our whole goal is it's female empowerment. That is what we're doing. We're creating supplements, nutrition supplements, to help empower females. So we're going from doing it in a fashion sense and a message sense to we're literally going to be putting high quality nutritional supplements in women so that they can perform better on a day in and day out basis.

‍

Jonathan:

So now the options are endless. Right? And that's why we led with the brand. We really weren't trying to, I mean, not that we were trying not to, but we weren't really intending for this to be a huge seller. We weren't intending for the ROAS to be where it was. I even, actually, because I'm not as skilled as Kevin, I was like, "Yeah, we should just do the video view campaign." Exactly what he said we shouldn't do. And he's like, "Jon, we're not going to do that. Let's [inaudible 00:30:56] purchase." And he was right. And that's why he does his job and I do mine.

‍

Zach Johnson:

That's awesome, man. Well, you guys have been super awesome. Thank you so much for opening up the kimono and sharing with us your winning and losing campaigns. Not everybody wants to accept their losses or even talk about their losses as much as they want to brush them under the rug. But I feel like the internet and the advertising world needs to see more of the losing campaigns and what were the takeaways, right? Because we all see the winning campaigns out there. But we really learn from when we're taking our medicine like Kevin did.

‍

Zach Johnson:

Well, cool. So Kevin, tell us where other people that ... You're a free agent, man. So where can people learn more about getting in touch with you? And if they're in the female empowerment space or they're wanting to scale an ad campaign, video ads, where can they find you?

‍

Kevin:

Yeah, no, for sure. So yeah, the best place to connect with me is you can find me on Instagram. It's Kevin Joseph, I-T-S Kevin Joseph. And then I made a tool. I basically wrote an article breaking down exactly how one of the winning campaigns that we have with Curves. So it goes into detail of ways that advertising and brand can do it with their own companies on their own type of scale. They can get it at workwithkevinj.com/guide. That's workwithkevinj.com/guide.

‍

Zach Johnson:

Sweet. Awesome, man. And Jon, where can people connect with you? And tell us a little bit more about what's coming down the pike with Curves and Combat Boots.

‍

Jonathan:

Yeah. So if you want to connect with me, LinkedIn is probably the best place. Kevin's your guy if you really want to have someone running your ads. But yeah, I just want to shamelessly promote Curves and Combat Boots. We do have a great product. My fiance wears them, my sister wears them. And they love them. So yeah, that's really what I'd like to promote. And if you keep an eye out on our website, you're going to see a little link in the top corner. And that's going to be to stay informed on the empowered nutrition, that's going to be our nutrition company coming out.

‍

Zach Johnson:

Ooh, I love it. I love it. Awesome stuff. Let's wrap it up. Dylan, take it home.

‍

Dylan Carpenter:

Yeah. Well hey, I mean, we broke down some killer ads, a killer video that's going to probably last forever. Chop it up, reuse it. It's the best part about it. I mean, branding, direct response, all about it. But hey, when it comes to incorporating a new funnel, some new products, play it safe, don't go too overboard out of the gate. This is a great example of that. But hey, Curves and Combat Boots. Kevin, Jon, thanks for coming on, y'all. That was an absolute blast. And hey, we're pumped y'all took the time to kind of dive into some really goodies and this was super valuable.

‍

Zach Johnson:

Thanks guys.

‍

Jonathan:

Thanks. Dylan, Zach, you guys are great hosts. Thank you guys.