Alex (03:13):

Hey, how are you doing good to be here. Thanks.

Dylan (03:16):

Not a problem. I'm personally pumped probably said it a hundred times to y'all, but go ahead and give everybody a little context of kind of who you are, what you are kind of getting into, just so people have an idea. Let's see you go first.

Alex (03:29):

Okay. So my name is Alex aftermath. Um, I have a small agency called 1111 digital. Um, but I do a lot of kind of co vendor work and freelance work for other agencies like such as impact. Um, so I, uh, focus primarily on like the ads ad account structure and strategy and, um, kind of aligning, but like, uh, assigning budgets and kind of retargeting windows and all the kind of nitty gritty, like sort of boring ads manager stuff that I actually really love. So that's kinda, that's kinda my piece of it.

Ali (04:04):

And for me, um, I focus much more heavily on the client relationships, uh, the ad creative. Um, my husband is actually on our team. He's on the other side of this wall here and he's our designer. Um, so I love it. Um, I really love how I kind of get to jump back and forth from being a creative person. I used to be a copywriter. Um, and then I jumped into the Facebook ads world and I used to own a business and a small boutique agency before, um, selling to impact. So it's just been a really wonderful evolution to sort of be able to keep my hand on all the creative side, but still get to do strategy and forecasting and planning with a lot of my clients.

Alex (04:47):

And for me, like to be able to put the headphones on and just focus on ads manager, like I love that stuff. So it works out great.

Dylan (04:55):

I like being in the back room is optimizing and scaling. How long have you been working with Taft again? We've been with them for just over a year. Heck yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I get hit by all y'all's ads and I mean, the creative is killer. The copy is killer. So I mean, y'all are doing it right over there. Thanks for the copy out of curiosity, is that you Ellie or is that you Alex? Uh, I do the copy. Um, I work with the brand manager over there, so she has some overall core messaging, but honestly, probably my favorite way to write copy is I dive into the brand and whenever it's time, I just kind of block everything out and I go and I scroll through all of the comments on Instagram. I'd like to see what emojis they're using. What people are saying is sometimes honestly the best copy I write are comments that people have made about how much they love the shoes. And so I'm ripping it from the headlines and putting it in there. And I can tell like, what's really nice after working with the brand for a year, as I can tell when I see I'm like that one is going to be my next headline. That one's awesome. So

Dylan (06:01):

Man, and I know y'all's ads have a ton of common, so it's gotta be a task on through all that.

Ali (06:07):

Yeah, that's good,

Dylan (06:09):

Man. That's pretty awesome. Heck yeah. Y'all so, you know, we love to kind of dive into the rich and the poor ads and financial principles, but let's go ahead and kind of take it away for this rich ad segment for kind of what's working good for y'all right now. So what is, y'all's kind of rich out here?

Alex (06:27):

Sure.

Ali (06:29):

Um, we, yeah, so we have this, this, uh, format that we call the trio or the quad, um, one time. So a lot of times when our clients will do product launches, uh, so Taft, when they were doing some product launches, they kept doing galleries, um, when they were launching, because they'll have different colors of the same shoe. And so they post up and we'd go into amplify and Alex you're like, I can't do it. It's a gallery, it can't amplify it. And so one day I was looking at it, I was like, you know, it would be awesome. This looks really cool. It would be awesome if we could create an ad that looks like a gallery, but that is just a single image. And so I grabbed my husband. I'm like, could you do this for me? And he was like, yeah, that's easy.

Ali (07:09):

And so the trio as we call it was born. Um, and we've done a variety of variations off of it now. So it's something so, um, think about whenever you see a gallery and you've got like one tall, uh, image and then two smaller ones stacked next to it and it's making up your one by one. Um, sometimes we do it with like a quad where we've got like three we've tested out where we make one, a color block and it's got text in it, but what works so well with it is that it just looks really organic and not like an ad. It stills the beautiful imagery that Taft art directs and develop some selves, but it feels more like a real organic post as opposed to an ad.

Dylan (07:51):

Oh yeah. And I mean, I think, I, I know exactly kind of that simply other kind of talking about story it's it shows kind of, you know, the product being used, the actionable, you know, taking a step down a sidewalk, then the up-close personal kind of style of the product and then kind of more of a maybe USP where it's stepping into a puddle or something. So I mean, the factors you'll have in there, you're hitting it all on the perfect spots and a single image where I can imagine your husband. Oh, that's pretty easy to make when in reality it's like, when you think about it, it's a cool concept, but is how long have you been doing that for?

Ali (08:21):

We started that. I would say probably what about six months ago, Alex?

Alex (08:25):

Yeah, I think so. We, we try, I mean, it, you know, the origin was like literally the one ad where we're like, can we recreate that? But as an ad, cause you know, it was an organic gallery. You can't just boost it and it did so well. Like, Ooh, let's try that again. And then he kept it, you know, every time we've done it, it's done great. We're like, Oh, we should keep going back to that.

Ali (08:42):

And it's so interesting because, uh, my husband, he, he tries to push it because he's, you know, a real designer. And so he's like, Ooh, let me get fancy. I'm going to try to like do a slow Mo here. He puts video in it sometimes or he'll make techs come in. And honestly, sometimes just the flat image does the best because it looks so organic. Probably I'd say when the text overlays work on that is when it's a big sale time and they actually want to promote something. Otherwise honestly, keeping it simple. Maybe it's got a little bit of the video, but otherwise that's been the best thing. And what I love too is that it's that image. So we're not just testing as a single image. Alex, we'll take that and put it in dynamic creative, he'll run it as the, um, the image on a collection. And so we try not a bunch of different ways to how much

Dylan (09:36):

Free reign y'all have over there. Of course they have, you know, how they punish themselves as a brand. But I mean, how much do you have to follow those kind of brand guides?

Ali (09:42):

Mine's out of curiosity for the most part, I know where I can push it with them and we're not. Um, but they pretty much how we'll do it is. Um, they give us all of the different assets when they're ready to launch something. Um, I'll go in and I'm a pack rat, so I hoard everything and I keep it. I'm like, that's great, but can I go back and use this one that we used over here? Um, copy wise for the most part, I know exactly what I'm pushing their comfort level and she'd be like, I don't like that and stuff like, well, we'll push each other back and forth. Sometimes, sometimes I'll win and sometimes she'll win. But for the most part, um, you know, honestly I try to make sure that my tone follows what I'm seeing on Instagram and on Facebook for them, because I never want the ads to sound like I'm a media buyer coming in writing something that is totally out of touch with what's in the feed.

Dylan (10:40):

Oh, that makes complete sense. Um, now with y'all's actual posts, you know, were ads more or less, uh, I always see it as a 10 social proof. The oldest use the same existing post ID across multiple audiences. Is that kind of your go-to?

Ali (10:53):

Um, so yeah, I'm a huge believer in social proof. I always have been for kind of normal ads, standard ads we'll use post IDs, right. Um, and go to past purchasers, but, uh, for dynamic creative, you know, you can't social proof them in that kind of traditional way. Um, but what we found is if you can get a dynamic creative that will, that the performance justifies keeping it alive for a couple of months, you can actually see the performance really start to skyrocket because then you get the kind of double whammy of the AI mixing and matching the right combination to the right person. Plus these combos are social proof. Um, so like we've, we have this one ad, um, we launched it in last, uh, September of 2019 when we took over and it rent it like, you know, the first couple of months it did. Okay. You know, just well enough basically to leave on. And then it just started taking off and it ran in month after month. It did so well for us. Um, we ultimately had to turn it off, I think over the summer because there was some information in it that was no longer like old styles. And, you know, there

Alex (11:54):

Were reasons other than performance that it needed to come off, but, um, it just, you know, it did great up until the day we turned it off for month after month, that one ad, um, you know, we run a lot of different ads. So I can't say like the one ad held the whole account up, but, um, but it just did, it was like a linchpin ad that did great month after month,

Ali (12:14):

Which actually, and to come back full circle to the rich ad. So we had it off for a couple of months and then all of a sudden we were like, you know what dynamic creative is doing really well again, let's get this bad boy relaunched. So I went in and I changed the copy language that needed to be changed. So it was more appropriate now. And then we decided to put a couple of trios into that. And so now, like instantly within days of you launching it, it became one of the top performing campaigns again.

Alex (12:44):

Exactly, exactly. And it's like on an upward trajectory because again, like the longer it goes, the more social proof it builds. So yeah.

Ali (12:52):

Now since we're on the topic of social proof, I'm kind of curious here. I used to do this back in the day, but I haven't done it much anymore is taking those post IDs, you know, in the conversion campaign and, you know, run them in an engagement to kind of build a social purpose. That's something I'll do at all. Or do mostly kind of social group come from.

Alex (13:07):

Yeah, no, we, we definitely still social proof is engagement campaigns to pass purchasers. Um, it's also like a nice little backdoor way to get a few extra conversions from your past purchasers. Like, you know, we don't do, uh, we don't, we run some to pass purchasers. I think it's nice for brand equity, but you know, a lot of those people are going to convert via email and other channels. So it's not a huge part of our strategy, but you know, it is a huge part of our strategy and getting the social proof and Hey, we'll take the sales that it generates also, you know?

Ali (13:33):

Oh yeah. Especially around running into warmer or, you know, people who've already purchased because I would imagine you're going to have a ton of people now. I love doing this where it's like, Oh, Hey, you got my last week. I love it so far. I've had these for six months. I love these to where if you can hit that kind of, you know, previous purchase audience first and then take it to the cold audiences, those are gonna be the first comments they see. So I think that's a huge little value perk there.

Ali (13:55):

And a lot of times you're running those Alex as part of the creative testing where we've got the warm audiences that we're running creative test to first, before they actually make it into the funnel. And because a lot of times I like to give Alex a, a wide variety of ads to choose from test and then just kill the losers and keep recreating new ones. So,

Alex (14:14):

And we will create a test, everything to cold and warm traffic because, you know, you just, um, I've been humbled enough by thinking, Oh, this is definitely like an ad for, for warm traffic. And then it's like, that actually did better to cold traffic that I just, we just test everything to both, unless it's like explicitly for one or the other, you know, if the, if the, if the copy is like, Hey, thanks for visiting. We're not going to try that to cold traffic. But, uh, but otherwise everything gets tested to both

Ali (14:41):

Testing strategy. Or do you kind of, when's your kill limit? Is it based off spend CPA, maybe duration of how active that the ad's been what's y'all how do y'all kind of kill?

Alex (14:52):

What's not working there. So, so generally speaking, um, it's, you know, that roughly that eight to 10,000 impression range, so I want to get an at each ad at least that many impressions. Um, there's, you know, you gotta use a little context. Um, so if we are in a, in a period where like everything's doing great, then, um, I'll ask a little more of these ads. So the ones that are going to quote unquote, win the testing. I, you know, I'm going to walk a higher ROAS then perhaps in more like lower times, like, you know, we're in the run up to black Friday right now. So, um, there's not a ton of bioactivity right. This is really where people are, you're building those warm audiences for black Friday. And so like, um, my, my testing threshold is a little bit lower to get like a quote unquote winning ad.

Alex (15:38):

Um, but yeah, eight to 10,000 impressions per ad and then dynamic creative. It's a little bit trickier, um, because you know, all those different variations. Um, I will generally give it two to three days. And if it's showing promise, then, you know, with the dynamic creative, you have a couple of different approaches. If it's doing great as a dynamic creative, then we're going to run it as a dynamic creative. And we've seen a lot of successful lately doing that. Um, dynamic creative, I think is kind of having a moment on Facebook. Um, but if it's as a, as a full dynamic creative ad, it's doing okay, but certain variations are doing great. Then we'll kind of make a Frankenstein ad out of the winning variations and roll that out to the, to the funnel. Yeah. Because I feel like I used to be able to take some of the posts.

Alex (16:22):

I had these from dynamic creative, but what are the newer updates? I can't even get that post ID now. So like, yeah, Ricky, I loved that immigrated to, but yeah, no, it's true. You can't do that anymore. Which is a bummer. You used to be able to take the post ID from, I think like the top 10, um, variations of it based on engagement. You can sometimes hunt those out so on page posts, but as kind of like, I'm looking for a needle in a haystack and oftentimes not worth it, you don't realize how many variations until you kind of go into the page post. Oh my God. Yeah. You go page after page. Like it's the same ad. Well, that's quite a rich had a bad-ass template. I mean, it works. I've been seeing those for a while, so,

Zach (17:04):

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Ali (18:13):

Maybe a flop to maybe it was kind of embarrassing, what shells kind of pour out

Zach (18:17):

Well.

Ali (18:23):

So we had just joined on with them last middle of September, really kind of crazy time for a big brand to come in. Who's looking to do big things for black Friday, cyber Monday. Um, and it was one of our black Friday cyber Monday ads. We had a wide variety of ideas from more traditional of, you know, boots hanging by the fireplace to, um, you know, boots under the Christmas tree to then, um, trying to be a little bit cheeky and out there. Uh, one of their flagship boots is called the dragon and it's waterproof. It's amazing. They had their two point, Oh, they do have a new one coming out very soon. Um, anyway, so we really want to try to feature and highlight that, you know, they can withstand anything. So we had this idea of, well, what if we have the boot stomping in a PI and then hose them off and it'd be great.

Ali (19:16):

And so they executed it in a similar way where it was someone walking down the street, they're throwing pies at it, washed it off. It was hilarious. Like we loved it. We thought this was like going to be amazing. So we ran it. Um, we had it multiple formats, four by five, one by one stories. Um, luckily I'd like to overpriced pair. So I had, I think over 20 ads, like ready, prepared, Alex launched a handful of them. Um, within the first hour of launching, they got like 30 comments of people saying like, there are people starving out there. How could you be so wasteful? Um, so we went back and forth and back and forth and ultimately they asked us to kill the ad. You know, I kind of tried to argue a little bit of, well, maybe we can just get past this.

Ali (20:07):

It's just a couple of people kind of piling on top of each other because we could see it actually was producing. Like it produced, um, quite a good amount of revenue right. In the first hour. But when it comes down to it, Taft has a very strong ethos and that's just not what they wanted to be tied to for people thinking of them ethically, morally. So, you know, even though we talked about, do you do make a big play of donating food to a shelter or anything like that? Like, you know what, it's just not worth it. You know, let's, that's not who we are, we try to kill it. And so we turned it off and we still had a fantastic black Friday cyber Monday and just the ads that were the top performers weren't in the one that we was going to be. Yeah. We were

Alex (20:48):

Like the whole lead up. We were like, Oh man, that had, is just going to kill it. I can't wait to see that one. If I remember right. We actually had them do the shoot for it. Right. And they're like, this is what we want.

Ali (20:57):

Oh yeah. All the art direction. Yeah.

Alex (21:02):

It sounded great. But we didn't anticipate the whole negative backlash.

Ali (21:06):

No, we really didn't. We were just trying to be like bold something that they hadn't done because they do really cool videos and they're so wonderful. Their whole art department, when we come to them with an idea, um, you know, they have, they, at this point drive a lot of their own art direction. Ideas. Lindsey is their, um, brand manager and she's fantastic with that. But, um, at that time she wasn't there. And so we were trying to help give them a lot of art direction on it and it just didn't work. So, but we laugh about it now with the, uh, the president yesterday about any brought up, he's like no prize this year,

Alex (21:44):

Take away his food as a stay away for the boots ads. Yes.

Ali (21:48):

Oh, that's funny. So that was just too much of a rapid negative engagement, I guess that just kind of was like, Hey, this is affecting the brands who w who cares how much it's making us. People are just getting a little angry about it. Just kind of exactly

Alex (22:02):

Good reminder also for, you know, for any client, like, you know, for us, we tend to really focus on like, what's going to make the most money and where's the Roaz. Um, but you got to understand that the clients have, uh, you know, it's their brand. They need to be protective of it. They have an ethos. And, um, you know, sometimes there's priorities other than just this one had the highest row as you know, so you gotta be aware of those things.

Ali (22:27):

It's a very good point, Alex. Yep.

Ali (22:29):

Oh yeah, because I mean, we may be making the ads but shown, but I mean, we're not, you know, the ones who come up with everything. So it's super interesting there. It kind of sucks to, especially when you go through all that way, so just create a killer video and you think you're gonna kill it. And then all of a sudden it doesn't work that way, you know?

Ali (22:45):

Yeah.

Ali (22:47):

To come on. And they're like, yeah, we spent, you know, 20 candles commercial. We tested it with a UGC. You know, we went to a festival free video versus 20 K video, which one won the free video. And I was like, Ugh,

Alex (22:58):

People shooting on an iPhone. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Ali (23:01):

Sometimes the crappy creative actually kind of converts, but I mean, you gotta test and that's why, you know, we're talking so much about testing.

Alex (23:08):

The reasons that the crappy creative converts a lot is the same reason. I think the trio works is that it doesn't look like an ad. It looks like it looks organic. Right? The, the less, it looks like an ad the better it tends to do.

Ali (23:19):

Yep, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. I was just saying like, that's where you see the founder is really great. I know you love a lot of the videos that he does. Like that stuff that he's just like, I'm with my grandpa, I'm going to do some grandpa videos and they're so cool. And I see them, I'm like, give them to me. I want to turn this into an ad and you know, that will amplify it. But like, those are the ones that are just lightning in a bottle are so awesome because they don't feel so staged. Oh yeah. I mean, sometimes you mess out. I don't know if Alex you've ever done this, but I actually forgot to put copy and a headline and one time turns out it was one of our best performers. The creative was so good. And I'm like, okay, we'll keep that going.

Alex (24:03):

It's really funny. Yeah. So I haven't done the forgot copy, but I've done the like, um, didn't realize like, um, put an image and that was the wrong size. And Facebook gave it a super weird crop where like the product was barely in the shot at all. And I was like, Oh, I actually do. Okay. Oh, look at that.

Ali (24:24):

Well, y'all the final segment. We love to take a page out of the rich dad, poor dad book, try and find some crossroads between marketing and the financial side of things. So what kind of financial principles could you all kind of share that could be a value to the audience, you know, could be cashflow related spend, you know, we're all gonna want to take this.

Alex (24:44):

Uh, okay. So, well, so one, uh, so this year, especially with COVID, um, we've kind of, uh, gotten into a pattern where our, uh, our campaigns are very much, uh, centered around new releases. So there's regular new, new drops. And we are, you know, we found that we were spending, um, like, uh, uh, you know, most of the budget on these, uh, new product launches, um, which led to a very, kind of a boom bust kind of situation where like the product launch comes. It does great. There's a huge peak. It does awesome. But then like you're running these product launch ads and the product, you know, hasn't launched anymore. And then you, then it dips and we try to like backfill with some evergreen, but then all of a sudden here comes another product launch. So, um, you know, it actually worked out okay because the peaks were very high, but, but we did end up in this very much peak and Valley kind of situation this year.

Alex (25:41):

Whereas last year, pre COVID, we did a lot of evergreen and brand ads and it was much more of a kind of steady, like good and steady. And we didn't have these massive peaks and valleys. We had like, you know, you get like when a new, when a new shoe dropped or a new boot drop, you get a little bump out of it. Right. But because the majority of the campaigns were these evergreen brand focused things, it was much more of a kind of smooth ride. And so, um, a couple of months ago, we kind of looked at that and said, huh, you know, we're, we're in this kind of boom bust cycle. And we've got, you know, the holidays coming up in black Friday where we're going to want to have all these audiences that are like coming for the brand more than maybe for like one specific boot they liked. And so we kind of went back into this more, um, evergreen strategy where we're supplementing our evergreen and brand focused ads with, um, with new launches versus making almost all of the campaigns about these new launches.

Ali (26:36):

Right? Yeah. This was some really good strategy. Alex had done some deep dives into all the analytics and one day we were just talking about it and he brought it up of like, you know, thinking ahead for Q3 Q4, we're partially through Q3. He was like, you know, we really need to think about this. Um, there was some interesting data to that who is finding those dynamic creative that we had talked about that originally started, uh, last year focused a lot on brand awareness, uh, kind of messaging handmade in Spain hand painted, you know, like all about the quality, like the custom Taft's soul and why it was so unique and, and different. Um, and it was really interesting to sort of see that by diving into an analytics. So we could see that those still were performing, that messaging was performing better than like, Ooh, shiny new boot.

Ali (27:29):

Like here, there's this new boot. So we've really been pushing them organically to focus more of their posts on evergreen content. So their grid doesn't just look like all product launches all the time. Um, even, especially with COVID, uh, going back and doing means they do a great job with their means. We actually take their memes and turn them into ads a lot of times because they're so good. Um, and so like we asked them to get those back into the mix so we could amplify those again for them. Um, and so we've definitely seen that starting to happen, um, where we're pulling our language back to be more evergreen about the quality of it. They launched a brand new website and they're talking about, you know, making bold statements and all the handcrafted quality again. So I feel like, you know, this year has been a unique year and every business had to do what they needed to do to make sure they're, you know, comfortable cashflow.

Ali (28:25):

But I feel like once we got to a certain point and realize that it's not about surviving now, it's about thriving again and making those moves to be ready for Q4 that, you know, we, we pivoted at the right point with that. So we can start building back up again. Exactly, exactly. How, how far out do y'all plan for the product launches or even these Q4 sales? Is it, you know, you plan out three months, you know, the mind, how do y'all kind of position yourselves in those scenarios to be proactive? Yeah, so I meet weekly with the client, um, and we basically have hotlines. We say recently, our husbands are the only people that we text with more. Um, so I, I have a great relationship with them. Um, and we typically will be projecting out at least a month and a half just for product launches.

Ali (29:13):

It always shifts, customs, everything else. And then we tweak and we pull something else forward. Um, but for right now for Q4, you know, we started planning, um, July 31st with them of like, okay, I know you're not ready to really talk about this, but here's a checklist. Here's all the things like site speed check, all the things that we need to be doing to be ready for Q4 and then plotting out, like we know without a doubt that we will have ads finalized. So Alex can start staging as of middle of November, November, I think by the 15th or 16th. And that way it's just done and we can pull the levers as we need to once it's time to launch. Yeah. That's really great. Because for example, it was last year, I think it was either last year or the year before that. Um, you know, cause Allie gets me all these ads early. We had everything lined up and done the, before the, like before the weekend, before black Friday. And then, you know, you'd see on Facebook, everybody complaining like, Oh, that's managers down or, Oh, like this thing's been in review for, you know, 82 hours, what am I going to do? And we're just like, yeah, all our stuff is done. It's just waiting.

Ali (30:24):

Oh yeah. I remember that last year when actually ads manager went down like three days.

Ali (30:29):

Yeah. Two years in a row. It was crazy for them. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that guy, you know, not everybody can be on that on top of it. And so like, I've, I've been there going like, Oh my God, what am I going to do? It has mentors down. I'm only halfway through my ads, but never put these guys, which is awesome. Yeah,

Ali (30:49):

Yeah. Yeah. If anybody's listening to this, make sure to preplan for that stuff because election year it's probably going to get a little bit more messy.

Ali (30:58):

Yep.

Ali (30:59):

Awesome. Y'all I mean, I've, I've enjoyed this thoroughly. So I mean, give everybody an idea, like what's next in y'all's world, any cool projects coming up, how can they get in touch with you? How can they support you? We'd love to kind of, you know, give you all some opportunities there.

Ali (31:12):

Go ahead. No, I mean, for us, we're, we're super busy right now. We're very, um, you know, we were mentioning before, we're very selective about who we work with and so we're not taking on anybody new right now and the new year. Um, once we get through Q4, we're definitely interested in, we love e-commerce, that's our absolute favorite, um, where we focus most. Um, um, that's really it like we're, we're, we're just excited to keep going. I love what I do and I love working with Alex on it. Totally gives the folks your email address in case they want to reach you. Uh, my email is, uh, a Parmalee it's a P a R M E L e@impactbnd.com. And my email is Alex, a L E X at one, one, one, one digital.com. Um, so like Allie said, we're, we're pretty much closed up for the year to try to get through Q4 and deliver for the best for our clients, but always happy to like answer questions if anybody has any follow-up from what we talked about. So feel free to reach out and I'd love to do audits. Take a quick look on this. We do, they do indeed

Ali (32:26):

So much for jumping onto been an absolute pleasure, but once again, thanks. Y'all. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thanks so much for to another episode

Zach (32:40):

Of the rich ed or at podcasts. If you're like me and listen to podcasts on the go, go ahead and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and rich ed [inaudible] dot com slash podcast. And if you absolutely love the show, go ahead and leave a review and a comment share with a friend. If you do take a copy screenshot of it, email me zach@funneldash.com. Show me you left a review. I'll give you a free copy of the rich add or ed book to learn more about the book. Go to rich ed for a.com to leave a review that a rich ed or at.com.

Ali (33:12):

Thanks again.